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  • 25-223 Remington wildcats

    Been doing a little research and there has been some discussion on other forums were a couple of people have put together some 257 caliber versions on the 223 Remington.

    First, one person has taken a 223 Remington, necked it up to 257 caliber and trimmed the case to a 43mm case length creating what would be a 6.35x43mm - First photo on the left.

    Second, another person is doing something they call the 25x40 which is made by running 223 Remington brass and running it through a custom die pushing the shoulder back and trimming the overall case length to 40mm.

    Some interesting ideas and the 6.35x43mm writer is reporting just below 2500 fps with a 100 grain bullet out of a 16 inch barrel upper they put together. The cartridge is appearing to like H322 which is one of the classic bench rest powders known for producing incredible accuracy.

    A similar wildcat that has been around for years was known as the 25 Copperhead which has now been rebranded as the 257 Kimber. This was a 222 Remington Magnum necked up to 257.

    Of course, there is the 25 TCU which is a 223 Remington necked up and sporting less taper and a 40 degree shoulder.

    What are your thoughts and ideas of a 257 in the AR-15? Open discussion welcome.


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    Last edited by tx65; 01-18-2011, 09:08.

  • #2
    i think it fills the gap between a 6.5 grendel and a .223. I actually think it (.257/.223) has a bit more merit than a 6.8... just because there is better bullet selection, uses standard mags, etc.

    I am not sure if it is really a gap that needs to be filled though. The 6.5 grendel, 6mmbr, 6XC all offer much superior ballistics than anything based off a .223 case, with out giving up much round capacity. All the arguments against the 6.5 grendel (lack of ammo/availablity, etc) are really no longer valid

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by speederx7 View Post
      i think it fills the gap between a 6.5 grendel and a .223. I actually think it (.257/.223) has a bit more merit than a 6.8... just because there is better bullet selection, uses standard mags, etc.

      I am not sure if it is really a gap that needs to be filled though. The 6.5 grendel, 6mmbr, 6XC all offer much superior ballistics than anything based off a .223 case, with out giving up much round capacity. All the arguments against the 6.5 grendel (lack of ammo/availablity, etc) are really no longer valid
      The 6XC is not an AR15 solution, it requires an AR10. 6 BR gives up substantial capacity when placed in an AR15... About 7 rounds in the space of a 20 round 5.56 magazine. (I have a 6.5 BR AR-15).
      Last edited by tx65; 01-19-2011, 12:10.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tx65 View Post
        The 6XC is not an AR15 solution, it requires an AR10. 6 BR gives up substantial capacity when placed in an AR15... About 7 rounds in the space of a 20 round 5.56 magazine. (I have a 6.5 BR AR-15).
        my mistake on the 6xc...

        i also didnt realize the 6mmBR magazine capacity was that reduced. Can you use 6.5 grendel mags for more capacity? The case diameter (~.460) is pretty close to the grendel (~.440)

        to reclarify my point (a little better this time), the "PPC like" cartidges (6.5 grendel, 6mmAR, 6mmPPC), IMO provide the most power and round capacity for the AR-15 platform at a normal magazine length. If you are going to spend the $$$ to custom build a .25-223 wildcat, might as well spend a few more $$$ to buy a 6.5 grendel (or similar) cartidge to get the most out of the ar-15 platform.
        Last edited by speederx7; 01-19-2011, 17:46.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by speederx7 View Post
          my mistake on the 6xc...

          i also didnt realize the 6mmBR magazine capacity was that reduced. Can you use 6.5 grendel mags for more capacity? The case diameter (~.460) is pretty close to the grendel (~.440)

          to reclarify my point (a little better this time), the "PPC like" cartidges (6.5 grendel, 6mmAR, 6mmPPC), IMO provide the most power and round capacity for the AR-15 platform at a normal magazine length. If you are going to spend the $$$ to custom build a .25-223 wildcat, might as well spend a few more $$$ to buy a 6.5 grendel (or similar) cartidge to get the most out of the ar-15 platform.
          The 6 BR has a .473 Rim Diameter and a .471 body diameter at the base. The cases only seem to function reliably in single stack mode within the width of AR15 magazines. The rim and case diameter is better suited to stacking within the width of an AR-10 magazine.

          I am very familiar the Grendel and the PPC's in the AR15 platform.
          Last edited by tx65; 01-19-2011, 20:14.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tx65 View Post
            I am very familiar the Grendel and the PPC's in the AR15 platform.
            yea i know your history.

            I am simply adding to the conversation about the .25x.223 with my impressions. I obviously dont have anywhere near the history/experience that you do. I can just state my beliefs and impressions publicly and see how they hold up. I might even learn something by doing so!

            what are YOUR thoughts on the recent emergence of the .223 based wildcats?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by speederx7 View Post
              yea i know your history.

              I am simply adding to the conversation about the .25x.223 with my impressions. I obviously dont have anywhere near the history/experience that you do. I can just state my beliefs and impressions publicly and see how they hold up. I might even learn something by doing so!

              what are YOUR thoughts on the recent emergence of the .223 based wildcats?
              For many people, the 223 Remington or 221 Fireball based wildcats are simple making use of almost all standard 5.56 parts while providing the performance needed to be effective medium game hunting cartridges within a 300 yard range. Add on top of the equipment simplicity is the reality that 223 Remington and even 221 Fireball brass is 50% of the cost of any Grendel brass.

              A little known fact from my original experiments back in 1998, a .257 caliber 115 grain was my first choice for a 1.5 inch (39mm cartridge length). Unfortunately, the selection of 257 bullets for my intended application (competition) was very limited. If my primary emphasis was hunting, 257 would have been the winner hence my intrigue with the wildcats others have been playing with.

              I have no belief that there is one do all cartridge and everyone should stop thinking of ideas. Actually, in 6.5mm, I think what JD Jones did with the 6.5 MPC is pretty intriguing for the AR15. Unfortunately, it appears to not being going anywhere.
              Last edited by tx65; 01-19-2011, 20:04.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tx65 View Post
                Been doing a little research and there has been some discussion on other forums were a couple of people have put together some 257 caliber versions on the 223 Remington.

                First, one person has taken a 223 Remington, necked it up to 257 caliber and trimmed the case to a 43mm case length creating what would be a 6.35x43mm - First photo on the left.....
                First let me introduce myself. I am the person that came up with this wildcat. Here is an update on the development of the 25-223AR (6.35x43mm).

                http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/atta...0&d=1295358329

                With a 16" 1:10 twist, the following ballistics have been optained:

                70 gn Sierra BK 2950-3050 fps
                80 gn Barnes TTSX 2800-2850 fps
                87 gn Speer HotCore 2800-2850 fps
                90 gn Sierra BK 2650-2700 fps
                90 gn Sierra GK 2750-2800 fps
                100 gn Sierra (MK PH, and GK) 2550-2600 fps
                100 gn Speer SPBT 2550-2600 fps

                AR-15 rifles wiht 16-18 inch barrels have been making kills on woodchuck out to between 200-300 yrds.

                In 24-inch bolt guns kills have been reported out to 700 yards on Prairie dogs.

                If you are interested you can start reading here:

                http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/4...3.html&page=46

                There are some pictures on the cartridges handiwork with the read. If you want to get to the pictures stright away start on page 47.
                Last edited by 320pf; 06-20-2012, 00:06.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Which 25x223/5.56mm Variation?

                  Hello to all.
                  I'm new here and found my way by searching on the web for 25 calibers options on the 5.56mm case. I'm interested in building a 25 caliber AR15 platform walkabout hunting rifle for small to medium size game, but from my POV, it's all a bit confusing getting there.

                  Appears the postings from 320pf and others who've been down this road have quite a bit of thought and research behind them. What I'm looking for is a clear path to building an AR15 in this caliber with a case that's going to work with standard magazines with the least amount of grief. So am I in reality looking for a 25x223AR, 25x45 or 25x40 or...?

                  This would include sourcing a complete upper (20" standard contour barrel), dies and anything else that's relevant. Would really appreciate the opportunity to tap into the observations you guys have accumulated in the process of your own experience with this.

                  BTW: whatever happened to the 25x45 Sharps?

                  Thanks to all,
                  Brakeman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Actually, the origional 25 Copperhead was a 25-.222. Standard .222, not mag. It was designed by gunwrighter John Wooters, and written ip in Rifle Mag #22.

                    respectfully
                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Brakeman View Post
                      Hello to all.
                      I'm new here and found my way by searching on the web for 25 calibers options on the 5.56mm case. I'm interested in building a 25 caliber AR15 platform walkabout hunting rifle for small to medium size game, but from my POV, it's all a bit confusing getting there.

                      Appears the postings from 320pf and others who've been down this road have quite a bit of thought and research behind them. What I'm looking for is a clear path to building an AR15 in this caliber with a case that's going to work with standard magazines with the least amount of grief. So am I in reality looking for a 25x223AR, 25x45 or 25x40 or...?

                      This would include sourcing a complete upper (20" standard contour barrel), dies and anything else that's relevant. Would really appreciate the opportunity to tap into the observations you guys have accumulated in the process of your own experience with this.

                      BTW: whatever happened to the 25x45 Sharps?

                      Thanks to all,
                      Brakeman
                      I know as of 2 weeks ago Black Hole Weaponry made barrels in 25X45

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There are three variants/wildcats based on the 223REM/5.56x45 case. Some will fit in an AR15 mag better than others. The 25x40 has the shortest case. It goes by the name 25x40mm. It was designed be Kurt. His handle on AR15.com is 7.62x40mm, his first creation. He also post on occasion on quarterbore. The 7.62x40mm is now being offered by Wilson Combat. Basically, it is a 223REM case shortened to 40mm and the shoulder pushed back. This reduces the case capacity to about 28-29 g of water. The 25x40mm designed is such that you can load bullets up to 115 g Bergers. The case mouth will not ride up on the ojive of the bullet and will fit the 2.26 length restriction of an AR15 mag.

                        The second 25 cal 223REM/5.56x45 based wildcat is the one I designed with advise from Kurt. It goes by the name of 25-223AR. It has the same shoulder as the parent case but the neck is shortened about 0.06" giving an overall length of 1.70". This cat was designed to 25 cal bullets up to 100 g without the case mouth riding up on the ojive of the bullet and still fit the 2.26 length restriction of an AR15 mag. I have been able to push 100g bullets to 2550-2600 fps (16-inch barrel). I have gotten up to 2650 with some combinations of bullet and powders, but as with all internet reloads… You are on your own Start low and work up..You must use your own judgement if the loads are safe in your gun/barrel combination.

                        The heaviest bullet that will fit in 2.26 length restriction of an AR15 mag is the 117 g Hornaday round nose and the 117 g GameKing. I have pushed these bullets up to 2400 fps. However if the ojive is much over 9-10 cal the case mouth will ride up too high on bullets that are over about 90-110 g.

                        If you want to read more about this cartridge you can find it here:

                        http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/4...23.html&page=1

                        The 25-223AR can run with the best of them. Here is a photo of a PDog kill at 721 yrds:
                        http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/4...3.html&page=50

                        The whole post is about 52 page. So if you want to read about it set some time aside. BUt if you are interested in building one it is probably time well spent.

                        The third 25 cal 223REM/5.56x45 based wildcat (This includes the 25x45 Sharps). It's main advantage is that it is simple to make brass. Run it through a 25-223 Rem die and you are good to go. However you will have a lot fewer bullets to choose from.

                        The company that was working on the 25x45 Sharps went out of business. I think that BHW provided the barrel to this company.

                        There is a full discussion on this here:

                        http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/4...3.html&page=28

                        Good luck with our project. Wildcating is a very fun hobby/addiction.

                        If you are looking for a barrel or complete upper, I can help you with your quest.


                        Here is a list of the bullets where the case mouth rides up on the ojive so you will NOT be albe to use the following:

                        Nosler 100 BT
                        bullet length=1.117
                        shank length=0.576
                        ogive length=0.541
                        case @1.7 COL=2.241
                        case @1.76 COL=2.301

                        Nosler 85 BT
                        bullet length=1.000
                        shank length=0.461
                        ogive length=0.539
                        case @1.7 COL=2.239
                        case @1.76 COL=2.299

                        Nosler 100 PT
                        bullet length=1.035
                        shank length=0.500
                        ogive length=0.535
                        case @1.7 COL=2.235
                        case @1.76 COL=2.295

                        Barnes 80 TTSXT
                        bullet length=1.012
                        shank length=0.456
                        ogive length=0.556
                        case @1.7 COL=2.256
                        case @1.76 COL=2.316

                        Speer 87 TNT
                        bullet length=0.916
                        shank length=0.369
                        ogive length=0.547
                        case @1.7 COL=2.247
                        case @1.76 COL=2.307

                        Horn 100
                        bullet length=0.986
                        shank length=0.459
                        ogive length=0.527
                        case @1.7 COL=2.227
                        case @1.76 COL=2.287

                        Horn 75
                        bullet length=0.867
                        shank length=0.339
                        ogive length=0.528
                        case @1.7 COL=2.228
                        case @1.76 COL=2.288

                        Sierra 100 MK
                        bullet length=1.074
                        shank length=0.516
                        ogive length=0.558
                        case @1.7 COL=2.258
                        case @1.76 COL=2.318



                        320pf
                        Last edited by 320pf; 07-27-2012, 09:29.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Really appreciate the detailed reply 320pf.

                          Am in the process of accumulating information for this 25 caliber build I plan on doing this winter on the AR15. Your info in identifying the three variations is precisely what I was looking for, thank you. By way of confirmation, am I correct in presuming the [bullet] NO-FIT list you detailed pertains to the 25x45 Sharps? Need to know since that is the one I specifically wish to avoid.

                          So by way of elimination, looks like it's your 25-223AR that offers the most of what I'm looking for. BTW, does the Nosler 110gr AB work with this cat? Speaking of which, can you provide a listing of bullets that will fit this rascal?

                          Since this is a hunting application I'm looking to build (not tactical), reductions in magazine capacity is not a big issue. But readily available and cost effective brass is!

                          Can you PM me with details on the upper and dies?

                          Thanks again,
                          Brakeman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Brakeman View Post
                            Really appreciate the detailed reply 320pf.

                            Am in the process of accumulating information for this 25 caliber build I plan on doing this winter on the AR15. Your info in identifying the three variations is precisely what I was looking for, thank you. By way of confirmation, am I correct in presuming the [bullet] NO-FIT list you detailed pertains to the 25x45 Sharps? Need to know since that is the one I specifically wish to avoid.
                            Yes it applies to the 25x45 Sharps and to just necking up the 223 Rem case to 25 cal.

                            Originally posted by Brakeman View Post
                            Really appreciate the detailed reply 320pf.
                            So by way of elimination, looks like it's your 25-223AR that offers the most of what I'm looking for. BTW, does the Nosler 110gr AB work with this cat? Speaking of which, can you provide a listing of bullets that will fit this rascal?

                            Since this is a hunting application I'm looking to build (not tactical), reductions in magazine capacity is not a big issue. But readily available and cost effective brass is!

                            Can you PM me with details on the upper and dies?

                            Thanks again,
                            Brakeman
                            Here is what I have worked up for the 110 gn Nosler Accubonds. AA220 still seems to be the best powder for the heavier bullets.

                            Nosler Accubond 110g BTSP (16-inch 1:10 barrel C.O.L= 2.26)

                            A2200
                            Load g末- velocity fps
                            23.5末末末-2381 ア17
                            24.5末末末-2422 ア11 MAX LOAD
                            24.5末末末-2458 ア10 Over MAX

                            H335
                            Load g末- velocity fps
                            23.0末末末-2147 ア38
                            23.5末末末-2163 ア13
                            24.5末末末-2273 ア10
                            24.5末末末-2269 ア3 FULL CASE

                            W748
                            Load g末- velocity fps
                            23.5末末末-2042 ア7
                            24.0末末末-2060 ア30
                            24.5末末末-2106 ア3 FULL CASE


                            Code:
                            Nosler 110 Accubond Ballistics @2420 fps cartridge COL=2.26"
                            (Bullet OAL. 1.195"; BC 0.418; SD 0.238)
                            [*Minimum Performance Velocity: 1800 fps (549 mps)]
                            Range   Drop   Windage   Velocity   Energy 
                            yards   inches  inches    fps       ft-lbs
                            0       -1.5     0.0      2427      1438
                            100      2.8     1.0      2223      1206
                            200     -0.0     4.1      2028      1004
                            300     -11.3    9.6      1844      830
                            320*    -14.7    11.1     1809      799
                            400     -32.8    18.0     1672      683
                            500     -66.8    29.0     1513      559
                            840     -317.0   95.4     1115      304 Transonic

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